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headhunter23

Suggestions for twinstar setup to get most stable straight ahead video

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Hello, I'm getting ready to setup a new twinstar with a hd camera on the front that will be stabilized by home made stabilizer system similar to an system from diydrones.com that will hopefully keep the camera level(up and down, left and right);

http://diydrones.com/profiles/blog/show?id...BlogPost%3A2525 I'll be using the futuba setup since I don't have a drone setup.

The goal is to have straight, slow curving, non jumpy videos of rivers and such. I won't be using this plane for fancy aerobatics or anything else other than it's main purpose.

Here's the question, with regards to ailerons, elevator and rudder. The problem is which setup to go with? Keep in mind that the plane will be flying fairly low and follwing the curves of rivers and such.

1. Rudder and elevator only; using the rudder to turn left and right might be a little quick and swing tail out further in which the stabilizer won't beable to correct.

2. Ailerons only? That possible? Bad idea?

3. Ailerons and elevator.

4. All three, but I didn't want to be using all three if I can help it, ie want to use rudder control to swing micro camera that runs on top of hd camera so I can see where to fly plane next.

I'm a little bit of a newbie to airplanes but loving it. Just really want the new plane to be setup correctly for best videos!

Thanks in advance.

Ivan. :)

Edited by headhunter23

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Gee Whiz... Another question I may be able to help answer.... I would use (and am planning to) a gyro on the ailerons and use small rudder movements (to skid around turns keeping wings level) for directional control. If altitude hold is necessary, put a gyro on the elevators as well. Remote gain adjustment and on/off on all gyros would be nice as well. A larger type high wing such as one of the Hobby Lobby Telemaster series of airplanes would help as well. Wouldn't be so "twitchy" in air currents (and easier to pilot).

HTH..

Ron

Edited by W3FJW-Ron

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Gee Whiz... Another question I may be able to help answer.... I would use (and am planning to) a gyro on the ailerons and use small rudder movements (to skid around turns keeping wings level) for directional control. If altitude hold is necessary, put a gyro on the elevators as well. Remote gain adjustment and on/off on all gyros would be nice as well. A larger type high wing such as one of the Hobby Lobby Telemaster series of airplanes would help as well. Wouldn't be so "twitchy" in air currents (and easier to pilot).

HTH..

Ron

So by putting a gyro on the ailerons, the plane would always try to stay flat then? Looked up on youtube and there doesn't seem to be such an increase in stability with the gyros on the ailerons. Is there much of a difference between ir autopilot by futuba and gyro's? It seems to me that gyros can drift, atleast based on headtracker 1, haven't heard too much about version 2, just that it has no drifting.

I'm kinda thinking now of going to dual autopilot for both the plane and the platform that the camera sits on. Should atleast produce more consistent video, your right about the twitchyness, bigger seems to be better. Thanks ron for the idea, any others are welcome.

Oh btw, uhhh you were thinking that having all three controls in place would produce better consistency? Or just going with 2 control surfaces?

Ivan.

Edited by headhunter23

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Well Ivan, gyros on all three surfaces "should" lead to more consistency in flight. How much depends on how you have set the gyro gain settings on each axis. A high amount of gain will cause constant hunting which you wouldn't want in your application.

I have no knowledge of the Futaba unit but understand that it's a fairly good unit. How it would work in your application I have no idea.

I can surmise however that it would not be all that great. All it detects is the difference between light and dark (horizon and sky) and adjusts the output accordingly to bring the plane back to an even keel. I suspect it would be too slow acting for your application. If there's a bright sky over head and storm clouds on the horizon, it may look at the top of the storm clouds and the brighter sky as it's horizon and try to climb the airplane. However, as I've said, this is only supposition.

Ron

Edited by W3FJW-Ron

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Hmmm... yea had read that and the manual. Well will give it a try.

Oh yea, sorry to ask again but having all three control surfaces best for consistency or 2 or one?

Ivan.

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I would go for all three myself. But as I said previously, be sure you can reduce the gain or turn off, at a minimum, the rudder and elevator gyros.

Good luck with the project,

Ron

Edited by W3FJW-Ron

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Hey ron I have one last question. I really like the setup of just controlling the two tail surfaces on the right side of the controller, if I hook up the aileron gyro, would I need to beable to control that channel as well or just have a simple on/off for that gyro in case things go south?

Thanks

Ivan.

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I'm using a gyro on the ailerons, but this is on an EZ which is pretty sensitive to gusts anyway, it helps, but it is all relative of course. One thing that did help significantly is to weigh it down, making it too light will just make it more jumpy in windy conditions, so I fly with large packs so the extra weight is actually put to good use. I quess a good approach for a steady plane with good tracking would be to have an airfoil and wing that is optimized for slow speeds and has slanted ends so it is more stable.

Cheers,

Sander.

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There's your answer courtesy of Sander, Ivan, and one I never thought about. With gyros set at a reasonable gain, say 60%, you can still over ride the gyros with your sticks. They primarily just assist with stability.

I really like the setup of just controlling the two tail surfaces on the right side of the controller

Not quite sure what you mean...

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Ah for 3 channel airplanes or starters like my ez all control of the plane except for the throttle is on the right joy pad. I like the way it works, simple and for ap simple sounds safer. Although technically the rudder is supposed to be on the left and ailerons on right joy.

Thanks sanders, I had noticed when I threw my gps in the plane that although it did go faster it was more stable in the wind. Good idea on the designs, will read up on them.

Ivan.

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Ah for 3 channel airplanes or starters like my ez all control of the plane except for the throttle is on the right joy pad. I like the way it works, simple and for ap simple sounds safer. Although technically the rudder is supposed to be on the left and ailerons on right joy.

Thanks sanders, I had noticed when I threw my gps in the plane that although it did go faster it was more stable in the wind. Good idea on the designs, will read up on them.

Ivan.

If that's what you like and am used to, you could just plug the rudder into the Ail channel and aileron into the rudder channel of the receiver. Don't let anyone else fly it without a loud warning though.

Actually, this thread should probably have been in the floobydust forum. Maybe admin will move it over.

Edited by W3FJW-Ron

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Strikes me that this thread is missing some basic points about aeroplanes.

To make a turn an aeroplane has to bank and yaw. At the same time.

If you look at the pure effects of controls then ailerons control bank whilst rudder controls yaw. And if you put some bank on with the ailerons the plane just flies straight with one wing down. Or if you put some rudder on then the the plane flies straight, skidding (nose offset to one side).

The secondary effects of the controls are interesting. In simple terms if you put aileron on and create bank, then generally the plane will also start to sideslip, and this sideslip will (because of the fin at the rear of the plane) result in yaw. And you will get a turn.

Alternatively, if you put rudder on and create yaw, in simple terms this speeds up the outside wing and slows the inside wing, creating more lift on one/less on the other, which gives bank. So you also get a turn effect.

But both of these secondary effects are dependant on the aircraft design.

Generally in model aircraft we either go with:

a: a dihedral wing (more stable) and rudder control. When the rudder is used to yaw the plane the dihedral ensures that roll is also created. (Wing Dragon, EasyStar etc.)

b: a flat wing (less stable) and ailerons. Turns are controlled by banking and yanking. (The ailerons are used to bank the plane and then pitch is used to change direction.) (Twinstar 1)

So for simple to control, self-stabilising flight (without any fancy electronic gizmos) go for a high wing (pendulum stability) dihedral wing, rudder and elevator controlled machine.

Quiet a few years back I had a Ben Buckle Quaker Flash. Just after take off, when I had just started to level off, throttle back and start a gentle turn, the receiver battery pack fell out of the plane (don't ask). The plane carried on flying in large gentle climbing circles for the next forty minutes, gradually drifting off downwind - and then landed itself undamaged in a field.

There are lots of designs out there that are really radio assisted free flight models: They'll fly themselve in a very smooth stable manner - and you only have to give them an occasional steer in the chosen direction. Super Sixty, Playboy Senior(!) etc. I'm sure they'd make excellent FPV platforms. But you'll have learn the ancient skills of balsa bashing!

One last point: if you want altitude hold then you should wire that to the motor..... the elevators govern speed.

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Just one point I disagree on. The last one. Elevators govern pitch not speed. If you apply up elevator without increasing power the plane will slow due to gravity. Conversely, the opposite, down elevator will have an increase in speed due to gravity without adding power.

Altitude hold will depend on both elevator and power.

Edited by W3FJW-Ron

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Interesting, thanks for that. I actually decided to get another plane, will have the twinstar and Cularis to test both to see which would work out better. Although I like the balsa, and weight really does seem to help stabilize things, I really like the new EPP foam. Others and I have trained on the easystar and man that thing can take a bashing that would destroy balsa planes. On top of that, literly with the glue and activator I can be up and going within 30 seconds. I can't say enough about this technology and it's cheap. Plus if for some reason I ever lose her in the water there might be a slim chance the whole thing is floating and hopefully together.

Do you mean the elevator can change the speed by using gravity then? (ie higher slower, diving faster?)

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Up slower, down faster without changing the power setting... Right. Get another plane. Half the fun is in building them....at least for me and a few other oldtimers who have Ambroid in their veins.

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My gliding instructor taught me to fly at the correct speed by judging how far up the horizon should be in the canopy and not to look at the ASI. He said you have to wait for the ASI to settle but the horizon always tells you your correct speed, even before it is !

Terry

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Sail planes are a different animal... I guess we can call thermals your motor/power. Without a thermal, of course you come down but of course to go up, you need a thermal. Either way a plane needs some sort of power to overcome gravity and maintain altitude be it thermal energy or energy from fuel of some sort. But of course you know that..

Ron

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Yea I know they're a different animal but

a. I can hand launch

b. extremely durable

c. If I break something I can fix it in 30 seconds or less

d. They are extremly stable, atleast from what I have seen on the net, very flat running and smooth

e. belly landings work for me

f. can carry weight (392g canon hv100!!! Man I'm excited, it's a nice freaking camera)

Oh and I'm adding a motor to it, so it's kinda the same setup as the easystar pusher. Will see if it works out for the application. Should have it next week for sure. Thanks for the tips on the glider. May look at telemaster at some point, but I'm afraid of the balsa, atleast fixing it. I'm sure you pro's think it's nothing to fix but I'm still relatively new.

Ivan.

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The balsa beasts are easy to build Ivan. Just requires a little patience. And they can carry a lot of FPV stuff. AND, I'm not putting down foamies or ARTF and RTF's. There's a plane for everybody. Most, if not all of the helpful people on this forum just prefer to put their time & energies into building and creating electronic marvels which is great as it will make it easier for me down the road... For that I thank them profusely..

Edited by W3FJW-Ron

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Oh i think building would be fun, its just if I have a crappy landing etc. that I can forsee putting it back together taking longer. Tons o great info on here, this site is probably one of the better ones in terms of technical info and geniuses contributing. Not dissing the other forums but really there is a difference here. Btw you have a personal site showing your planes? Not sure if the one I browsed was yours, went by the same name.

Ivan.

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Don't have a crappy landing. Problem solved.

No, I don't have any planes on my server. Just a bit of unfinished pages about ham radio. I have no planes to post anyway. I have a bunch of parts, cameras & the rest of the downlink equipment (3 of them to be exact), and about 12 kits in boxes, and three helicopters. Also a 36" V hull coming in a few weeks,but that stuff is for when I get my RV on the road. It will give me something to take up my time between tanks of gas instead of twiddling my thumbs and going nuts. If everything goes well, that will be late summer, early fall of next year. Gotta build my hobby shack to tow behind the RV yet, and build up my electronics test bench & build a modeling table. And yeah, my homepage is at http://www.nortac.com/w3fjw if that's the one you looked at.

Might even run across you on the road sometime.

Ron

Edited by W3FJW-Ron

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Very interesting history you have there! You like ham radios? J/k! Thanks for the tip on avoiding crappy landings, laughed when I saw that. :D

Ivan.

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Oh yeah. Been a Ham since the middle of the last century. '54 to be exact. Back in the days when the first CK702s were hitting the market costing a months paycheck... Had to build my own RC equip also. 3# receivers & batteries and 5# transmitters & compound escapements also. Sure was interesting back then. Fun days with those old ignition engines & Peewee .020 nitros,

Wish I could go back. Gas was only .09/gal during gas wars. .15 regularly............

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