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rossmans

FVP and Insurance

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Seems the UK British Flying Model Association have had the question of insurance for FVP flying raised. The BMFA Insurers decision will be made in the near future. BMFA have also consulted the CAA (Civil Aviation Authority) (sounds ominous!).

RCME magazine OCT Page 14 refers.

Edited by rossmans

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I was told by the BMFA recently that they were pro AP and FPV flying as long as its for hobby use and that they would be putting their case to the CAA very soon. Fingers crossed ;)

Terry

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I was told by the BMFA recently that they were pro AP and FPV flying as long as its for hobby use and that they would be putting their case to the CAA very soon. Fingers crossed ;)

Terry

Sounds bad, the CAA already want £200 per year for A/P use....what next :angry:

Ross

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If it's there, it will be taxed when found. Happens in every country.... Some worse than others...

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Here you go..if you have not seen this from the BMFA (British Model Flying Association).

After consultations with the Civil Aviation Authority and our insurers, the BMFA is happy to confirm that First Person R/C will be a legal and recognised aspect of model flying and as such covered by the BMFA Insurance policy but ONLY where the following conditions are applied:

The activity is solely for 'sport and recreation' purposes.

Two pilots must take part

A buddy box system must be employed

The pilot in charge must operate the master transmitter

The pilot in charge must not wear the headset or view a screen

The aircraft remains within the natural unaided visual range of the pilot in charge

Reliable operation of the Buddy Box is established

A clear handover protocol is established

The pilot in charge is solely responsible for the safety of the flight

These operating conditions very clearly place the legal responsibility for the safety of the flight on the pilot in charge.

Only by compliance with the above procedures can First Person RC take place as a lawful and insurable aspect of model flying activity".

Manny Williamson, Development Officer, British Model Flying Association.

Thre has been a discussion on RC GROUPS FPV pages about this. See pages 3 and 4..UK FPV Insurance for latest. It matters

Edited by rossmans

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In other words FPV flying will be the same as normal model flying but the student can fly FPV within these limits.

I think FPV has moved on from this long ago and for most the hobby goes far beyond this level, it's clear that 90% of FPV flying in the UK will not be legal.

The BMFA have just made FPV flying fit into their little comfort zone and not recognised it for what it is or where it it going. It will be very hard to move on from this BUT this is the rules for the BMFA only, not all modelers or FPV flyers.

Terry

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...quote. BUT this is the rules for the BMFA only, not all modelers or FPV flyers. ...unquote

That's true but it will apply to any club OR member with BMFA insurance cover . What about getting your own insurance when you are flying "outside" the BMFA at a place that is not a BMFA insured flying field (i.e. anywhere else)?

Insurers talk to each other..sooner or later they will all catch on and when you seek insurance off your own bat they'll think "ah yes..a modeller with video....ching! and you will probably get slapped with a sizeable premium and a whole string of what is covered and not covered.

Be interesting to hear from someone who could approach a UK insurer (probably an aircraft insurance broker) and see what they think about cover for unlimited FPV. The trouble here is..the insurers may feel ok about it but the CAA will more than likely raise its head about models flying willy nilly cross country!

FPV pages RC GRoups page 4 show my reply to questions raised on this matter. There is no such thing as free airspace in the UK and quite rigid rules apply. We have to understand them.

By the way..the BMFA rule on FPV is not just for "students" it's ALL FPV "pilots" and as someone asked in the RC Group FPV pages..What happens if you fancy a bit of FPV when on holiday in the UK. ..Where do you get the 2nd qualified model pilot?.

We have a problem and it is not going to go away. The more modellers try to emulate fullsize pilots/flying the closer the Civil Aviation Authority will look at FPV. After all..the BMFA consulted the CAA over this so they are not unaware of modellers and FPV.

Edited by rossmans

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What about getting your own insurance

My club did have its own insurance until a couple of years ago and it covered us to do anything as long as it was legal. Unfortunatly we had new members come to us that wanted to keep their BMFA insurance they had already so we change over to it as well just to make life easier.

By the way..the BMFA rule on FPV is not just for "students" it's ALL FPV "pilots"

I know, my point was that we are now treated that way.

I want to know how many UK FPV pilots intend to follow these rules ?

Will FPV become like car cruses or fox hunting ?

Terry

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My club did have its own insurance until a couple of years ago and it covered us to do anything as long as it was legal. Unfortunatly we had new members come to us that wanted to keep their BMFA insurance they had already so we change over to it as well just to make life easier.

I know, my point was that we are now treated that way.

I want to know how many UK FPV pilots intend to follow these rules ?

Will FPV become like car cruses or fox hunting ?

Terry

So what happens if you live in the countryside & don't have anyone else to fly with? The rules are stupid & will be impossible to enforce, if you are flying FPV & crash into someone of something, it's easy to say you were flying by eye sight not goggles.

Ross

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Just be careful not to do a flyover and record yourself wearing goggles.....

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Its difficult.

If I lived in the middle of nowhere, I could do what I wanted and the chances of it affecting anyone else would be almost zero.

However, living and flying where I do, my foamie EZ* could end up in the middle of the A52; very unlikely, but of course potentially disasterous. And the spirit of the age is increasingly hysterically risk-averse; no doubt newspaper headlines following such an accident would insist we all take pilots licences, and treat it like full-size flying.

Amidst this, the BMFA response is cool common-sense, albeit from a club-centred view of the hobby. They build on principles they already have - that all wireless links are potentially dodgy (FPV downlink or R/C uplink) BUT a failed downlink leaves the pilot blind, so no-one can see when or whether to yell 'DUCK!', and that is a bad thing. I'm not aware that 2.4GHz can penetrate rock or thick forest, and in the UK 10mW range makes the "remain visible" rule a no-brainer. BMFA seeking to support club activities, they use the obvious solution - trainers.

I was wondering whether they would differentiate between dangerous projectiles with front-mounted heavy petrol-driven circular saws that occasionally get out of control and kill people, and harmless lightweight pusher foamies, but I guess there are arguments about dangers of distraction, or fire, that apply to any size model/technology.

So, I'm bemused. It's got to be a good thing that they haven't banned it.

However, as they propose a club-bound solution, it is essentially irrelevant to a lone flyer such as myself. I just need to find an insurer who will quote for the 3rd-party risks of lone flying a small foamie being flown under FPV within 1km of the pilot. Perhaps we do need a FPV Flyers' Association, to get a decent deal on this? I'd join...

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Terry - could you approach your club's old insurer and see what they could offer the lone flyer? We could set some rules e.g. foamies under 2m/1kg, 10mW range, maybe even pusher-only (as it's only ICs that tend to kill people), plus some criteria about failsafe equipment, proximity to airports etc. FPV isn't illegal, after all.

There could well be quite a few interested folk on this list, when you consider all the people not keen on binning all their kit and replacing it with 'BMFA/Trainer-friendly' head gyros etc.

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i spoke to our club sec and he said it was through Zurich but had no contact names or numbers as we have been BMFA for the past 2 years.

For sure they had no limits to the activities as long as they were legal.

I think what we need is to create a UK wide on line club just for FPV. This is something one of the UK FPV shops could set up or anyone that is high profile in UK FPV.

Terry

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Good idea. I've just dropped that chap at www.firstpersonview.co.uk an email, to see if they're interested.

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So how about this for an example:

I fly the aircraft, NOT FPV! but have a buddy box system, where the learner is sat in a chair, DX7 stripped down to give full size rudder pedals, ful size control coloumn (stick) & throttle mounted on the arm of the chair..just like sat in a real aircraft. The learner flies by FPV, with 2 cameras mounted side by side (6.5cm apart), 2 seperate video downlins (stereo view), now also plugged into the ground based video receiver are 4 pairs of goggles for spectators to sit down & watch from inside the canopy...we charge as an example £3 for 10 mins per person viewing. surely this wouldn't be against BMFA policy as the guys viewing have NOTHING at all to do with the aircraft.

Ross

Edited by Macsgrafs

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Sounds fine to me, as long as the pilot in command (and control ) is able to fly the aircraft in normal R/C mode. The only possable problem may be charging money to view, a quick call to the BMFA should sort that out though.

Terry

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I'm sure your right Terry, can't see a problem as the viewers are NOT involved with the aircraft in any shape or form.

Ross

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Well they somewhat are, as if there wasn't a plane in the air they wouldn't be watching and thus paying ;)

Seems like a borderline scenario to me...

Edited by Kilrah

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Well they somewhat are, as if there wasn't a plane in the air they wouldn't be watching and thus paying ;)

Seems like a borderline scenario to me...

Very true, but they are NOT directly or indirectly involved in the actual flying of said aircraft.

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Not directly but the rules say that flying with a camera to make money is not permitted. Im sure what you want to do is not what they had in mind when they made the rule so its worth contacting them.

Terry

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Not directly but the rules say that flying with a camera to make money is not permitted. Im sure what you want to do is not what they had in mind when they made the rule so its worth contacting them.

Terry

Hi Terry, I don't think I'll bother contacting them over this, it's not thier concern as I see it. Anyone with a suitable receiver & monitor can view the signal, so it makes my original question obsolete.

Ross

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Anyone with a suitable receiver & monitor can view the signal.

Yes, but again they wouldn't be paying for it. If you rent them the equipment you do link the 2 activities.

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Here you go..if you have not seen this from the BMFA (British Model Flying Association).

After consultations with the Civil Aviation Authority and our insurers, the BMFA is happy to confirm that First Person R/C will be a legal and recognised aspect of model flying and as such covered by the BMFA Insurance policy but ONLY where the following conditions are applied:

The activity is solely for 'sport and recreation' purposes.

Two pilots must take part

A buddy box system must be employed

The pilot in charge must operate the master transmitter

The pilot in charge must not wear the headset or view a screen

The aircraft remains within the natural unaided visual range of the pilot in charge

Reliable operation of the Buddy Box is established

A clear handover protocol is established

The pilot in charge is solely responsible for the safety of the flight

These operating conditions very clearly place the legal responsibility for the safety of the flight on the pilot in charge.

Only by compliance with the above procedures can First Person RC take place as a lawful and insurable aspect of model flying activity".

Manny Williamson, Development Officer, British Model Flying Association.

Thre has been a discussion on RC GROUPS FPV pages about this. See pages 3 and 4..UK FPV Insurance for latest. It matters

In the USA the AMA has adopted an almost verbatim edict in respect to FPV. I have been flying FPV for 3 years now and have recorded 80% of my flights. I used a tft monitor on the 7 foot pole my reciever was mounted to. Newbee pilots should not fly FPV until they have mastered visual flight including unexpected engine failures. Noise in the video will be encountered in flight and the pilot must have the experience to fly through the noise and not panic.

Arkabutla in snow:

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