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Guys

Yesterday I spoke with the technical director of the 3rd Annual AUVSI student UAV Competition Mr. Mark Pilling of Eagan McAllister Associates, Inc (EMA) 47332 Eagan McAllister Ln. Lexington Park MD 1- 301-863-2192 ext. 2345 or 410-610-8472. http://www.bowheadsupport.com/paxweb/seafa...ers/default.htm

Mr. Pilling explained to me that Unlike the DARPA Grand Challenge of 2004 and now the upcoming 2005 that is open to any one that would like to participate. http://robotics.usc.edu/grandchallenge/pr/...ules_8oct04.pdf

The 3rd Annual AUVSI student UAV Competition is only open to universities and undergraduate students.

Mike Robinett and I have once again been batting around the idea of having a UAV/RPV meet for all of us that are working on UAVs and RPVs.

This event would be an open event that any one could attend even the universities and undergraduate students.

It would be an event for those of us that are working on UAVs and RPVs where we could display and fly our UAVs or RPVs.

Regardless of the type of UAV/ RPV be it fixed wing or rotary wing or even lighter than air.

What we would like to do here is get a consensus as to how many of you would be willing to attend such a meeting.

Our idea is that this event would be open to any one and every one that is involved with UAVs or RPVs.

Please post a yes or no reply so that we can get a feel for the numbers of you that are interested attending so that we can determine if there is enough interest in having a UAV / RPV meet and go forward with it.

Any one willing to help with this project can contact me at the numbers listed below we can use all the help that we can get.

Thanks

Dave Jones

AUAV.net

Dave-AT-auav.net

Phone: 1-941-723-9058

Cell: 1-941-238-8394

Fax: 1-941-723-3823

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I am in definitly. We all talk to each other on the net all the time. Pick someplace central in the country or central to a lot of people on the forums.

Here is an idea, since we all post on 4 or 5 different places you need to get people all on the same page,use the forum on your website www.auav.net to coordinate between everyone. I know I am on Rc-cam, rcuniverse, rcgroups, runryder, and a couple more beside that. The confusion between forums is enough to kill this thing.

Sometime next year, we can have it down south next year when it starts getting cold in the north. But, if we have a new AMA president (who matthewson supports UAVs and technology) I bet we could have it in Muncie, IN. There is nothing around the headquarters and they need to realize we are here to stay and this stuff is a valid technological advancement. IMHO.

Matt Klarich

Edited by mklarich

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Guys you all need to go to the AMA web site and look at the new 2005 Safety Code you can see it at

http://www.modelaircraft.org/PDF-files/105.pdf go to the section on radio control paragraph #9.

Wile it may not be perfect it is a dam good start. It looks like we have finally won this battle.

We all have to give a great deal of thanks to mine and your very good friend Hal. DeBolt for his dedication to this cause without his efforts I truly believe that this change in the safety coed would not have come about.

For those of you that may not know Mr. Debolt he has been working very hard to get the safety changed he stuck with it long after most others would have quit.

I would like to be the first to say thank you Hal for all of your hard work and dedication we all owe you a great deal of thanks.

Dave Jones

AUAV.net

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Dave,

I live in Sarasota, FL. and fly UAV's and would like to help with such an event in the southeast. I know about a dozen UAV flyers here in Florida who I'm sure would be interested.

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Couple of comments,

Dave, regarding the AMA rule change, it looks like paragraph 9 excludes our work... not sure how this is seen as a 'win'?

Matt, while I appreciate the idea to consolidate these discussions in one place, I'd rather not do it on Dave's forum because I am not currently a member there and I already subscribe to more forums than I have time to keep track of (no offense Dave :) ) Although I guess I'd be ok with it if I could get subscribed to one main thread with email notifications turned on.

Denver seems like the ideal central location in the US, and for most folks I would think it would be a single flight connection = cheaper flights. I'll even volunteer to store all airplanes and support equipment that people want to have freighted in.

And to offset my obvious self-serving choice of location, I'll donate a month of my advertising space on both the Ezone and RCgroups AP forums to point them to whatever forum ends up hosting the details on the event.

Now I say all this without knowing if I can secure a flying field :rolleyes:

Regards,

Bill

Edited by yb2normal

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Bill

Yes I agree with you that the new rule # 9 dose still prevent the use of video to fly models.

But the elimination of the Autonomous rule is what I was talking about and if we can get that changed then we can get the video rule change as well.

The one thing that the guys flying under video should be willing to except is that they may have to use a buddy box and have a safety pilot on the primary transmitter this way the safety pilot is the primary pilot and has the model under visual 100% of the time.

Hay Robojet I live in Palmetto just across the Manatee river please call me at 941-723-9058 so that we can talk over details of a possible UAV meet if we can get the guys that you know here in Florida to work together it would be a great start.

Thanks

Dave

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I went to the new rules for 2005, quote from 2005 rules, part 9.

"The operator of a radio-controlled model aircraft shall control it during the entire flight, maintaining visual contact without enhancement other than by corrective lenses that are prescribed for the pilot. No model aircraft shall be equipped with devices which allow it to be flown to a selected location which is beyond the visual range of the pilot."

I have sat here and read that quote a dozen times, it can be read so many ways and covers so much it broke my brain I think. :angry:

1. If the operator shall control the airplane the entire flight, he CANNOT turn control over to an autopilot.

2. "No model aircraft shall be equipped with devices which allow it to be flown to a selected location which is beyond the visual range of the pilot." *** So, you still cannot put an autopilot in the airplane, even if you do not select a location beyond visual range to be flown too, there aren't many autopilots on the market that are only programmable with a waypoint within 1 mile (arbitrary number, for some .5 mile visual, others 2 miles visual, I was just putting a number out there).

So basically as I see it, they fixed the wording problem they had with no visual enhancement from last year and autopilots are still off the table. So even if old dave brown is replaced, without waivers the soonest everyone can fly autopilots is 2006 IF the rules are changed.

Matt Klarich

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9. The operator of a radio-controlled model aircraft shall control it during the entire flight, maintaining visual contact without enhancement other

than by corrective lenses that are prescribed for the pilot. No model aircraft shall be equipped with devices which allow it to be flown to a selected

location which is beyond the visual range of the pilot.

I will second Bill's concerns: new paragraph 9 is now specifically forbids autonomous flying to a remote location. 2004 rule was not very friendly for FPV flying, and now it is even more restrictive.

I'd consider as a win that there were no modification for altitude limit.

I am not sure if I can make it to the meeting but I'll choose Denver over Florida.

Edited by cyber-flyer

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Guys

The folowing is an email that I sent to Dave Mathewson earlier today, in it I addressed Matt's concerns.

This is why I have all ways sead that the EC should alow those of us that are involved in this part of model aviation.

Please let me know it any of you have any input that should be addressed as well.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Dave

I just reviewed the new AMA safety code for 2005 I feel that it is a major step forward for those of us that are involved in autonomous flight. Paragraph 9 under Radio Control no longer come right out and restricts the use of any devices that would allow for autonomous flight, wile this is a major step forward it is the phraseology that has me concerned.

I will try to explain my concern.

As you know the paragraph reads as:

"9. The operator of a radio controlled model aircraft shall control it during the entire flight, maintaining visual contact without enhancement other than by corrective lenses that are prescribed for the pilot. No model aircraft shall be equipped with devices which allow it to be flown to a selected location which is beyond the visual range of the pilot."

It is this part that I am concerned with. I under stand what was trying to be accomplished here by allowing the model to be flown autonomously but if the last part of it is taking literally then any model equipped with as system that would allow for autonomous flight would still not be allowed under paragraph # 9.

For example the paragraph states that "No model aircraft shall be equipped with devices which allow it to be flown to a selected location which is beyond the visual range of the pilot."

I believe that this part should read " No model aircraft shall be equipped with devices that are programed to allow it to be flown to a selected location which is beyond the visual range of the pilot."

All of the autonomous systems that the guys have developed have the capability that would allow a model to be flown to a selected location which is beyond the visual range of the pilot."

The point that I and trying to make here is even if I was to program only one way point directly over the center of my flying field and the model was never be beyond my visual range but by having the following statement in paragraph #9 No model aircraft shall be equipped with devices which allow it to be flown to a selected location which is beyond the visual range of the pilot."

It still could be argued that even if it was programed to maintain it's position within my visual range that it is equipped with device that if programed correctly could allow the model to be flown to a selected location which is beyond my visual range

I think if the words which allow it was changed to that are programed It would prevent this confusion.

My biggest question to you is this. Is it to late in the year to get it change before the 2005 Safety Code is published?

If you have any questions you can call me at 1-941-723-9058

Thanks for all of your help,

Dave Jones

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Guys

I would like to get this discussion back on the topic of having a UAV meeting.

So far I have received replies from over a dozen of you that are interested in having a UAV meet.

I know that there are others of you out there that have not responded please do so.

The response that I have receive so far has been very positive. The first question that I have been ask is where should we hold it.

My first response to that is any place that we can get that has enough room to allow us to fly.

Some of you guys would like it to be close to where you live and I under stand that, however that just will not work out for everyone involved so my suggestion is that everyone look around your home state for a satiable flying site and we will toss all the locations in the hat and go from there.

I have been ask if it would be open to commercial companies my answer to that is yes and that it would be an open event that any one could attend even the universities and undergraduate students.

It would be an event for all of us that are working on UAVs and RPVs, for universities, commercial companies it would be a place where we could display and fly our UAVs or RPVs regardless of the type of UAV/ RPV, be it fixed wing or rotary wing, gas powerd, electric or even lighter than air be it autonomous or RPV or flown by video.

I see it as being open to all and any one.

Please copy this posting to other forums and less see if we can get enough guys interested to get this thing going.

If each of you posted it to one other forum I believe that the interest would grow very fast.

You can all use my email address as a point of contact dave-AT-auav.net and I will keep a running total as to the amount of interest.

Thanks

Dave Jones

AUAV.net

dave-AT-auav.net

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No problem...I just had my doctor prescribe video goggles.

Seriously, let's remember that this is the AMA, not the FAA or FCC. Anyone is welcome to fly any time they want in a manner not prescribed by the AMA as long as they don't do it at an "AMA only" sanctioned field, or where the rules given by the AMA are incorporated in local statutes, or where it's otherwize forbidden by law. It goes without saying that flyers that do not fly by the AMA rules do not have the "protection" that AMA insurance affords...e.g. get you own liability insurance if you don't already have it via homeowner's. The AMA is after all, only a secondary carrier.

This is not to say that I have any disregard for the fine work the AMA does. It's just that they are not a legal authority.

Party on,

T.I.

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As Dave mentioned above, Im in. I think a SE US location would be best for many reasons. I get excited when I get a flyer in the mail about a UAV meet only to find out its in Maryland or California. If Robojet is right, we could get a good turnout down here..hey Val, why Denver over FL? Hurricane seasons almost over, itll be cleaned up soon.

Robojet, do you have contact with the dozen or so UAV guys here in FL?

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Let's just call a spade a spade here....

This thread is a call to everyone willing to travel to Florida for a UAV/RPV meet.

That's ok, just don't make it sound like it's open for discussion ;)

Dave, if you can schedule it around prime vacation season, I could probably swing a family vacation around the event.

Regards,

Bill

P.S. My advertising offer still stands, regardless of where it's held.

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Val, why Denver over FL?

I am a sucker for the mountains. I think they look spectacular in an aerial view.

I am getting bored flying over plain areas here around Boston.

It is also depends on time of year for the meeting. Winters are better in Florida I've heard :)

But unfortunately I can't commit for the meeting, so ignore me.

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Bill brought up a valid point that I was going to mention earlier. Many of the private uav people are going to have to make a somewhat major venture out of this. We need to try and find a location where there is other stuff around for the other family members. Florida is better for that, orlando, disney, MGM, etc, etc. AMA headquarters, cornfields as far as the eye can see...

Just another piece of this wonderful puzzle.

Everyone cannot be made perfectly happy, nor can it be in everyones backyard. Some of us are going to have to make sacrifices....So, lets have it in st. louis, its a tedious 35 miles away from me.... :)

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Guys

I am going to try and answer all of this questions one at a time and in the order that you have presented them in

Temporary Insanity

You are correct but not all of us have the luxury of having a non AMA field to fly on so I see this as a step forward to allowing us to fly autonomous models at AMA fields.

I do believe that we will have to create a SIG Special Interest Group under the AMA but it is a start. http://www.modelaircraft.org/PDF-files/158.pdf

And it would allow those of us to test fly that have no alternative to an AMA field.

yb2normal

Bill

It is open for discussion and I don't really give a RAT's ASS where it's held just as long as we get something going.

I will go wherever we have to go . The biggest problem that I see is getting a place to hold it.

If you have a location then by all means let us know where it is.

I have been to Denver and it is very nice there a bit cold but nice.

When Dave Mathewson is voted in as the new AMA President we may even get to hold it there in Muncie, Indiana

There is a 2nd place in Indiana that would be a perfect place for it it is called converse Indiana

here is a terrsservr link to it so that you can what it looks like from the air.

http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.asp...=11229&z=16&w=1

However I will say that if this turns out to be a little red hen project and I wind up being the only one working on finding the

meeting site then I don't want to hear any one complaining.

And yes I do have a couple of places here in Florida that I am looking at but I don't know if we could get ether one yet.

One is very close to the Mouse House (Disney world)

cyber-flyer

I like the mountains too but it is hard to fine a large open area to fly in. That is one of the problems that I have with the field that I fly from now ask Matt.

mklarich

Matt Is correct in that we need to try and find a location where there is other stuff around for the other family members to do wile we are out doing our geek stuff and Florida is better for that, orlando, disney, MGM, plus in the winter time wile most of you guys are freezing your ASS's off we are still wearing tee-shirts.

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

I have tried to do this in the past and this is the most interests that I have ever received .

We need to keep the dialog open and get this thing off the ground.

Just so you guys know, Matt klarich, Mike robinet and I have gotten together at least 4 times and we had a blast each time. Could you imagine what it would be like to have 10 or 20 or more UAV and RPV geeks all together in one place?

Dave Jones

AUAV.net

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Hi Dave,

In spite of all my ambition I suspect I would not have the time or energy to give this project the attention it deserves. Your point is well taken, and it should be held wherever there is someone who can drive it to completion.

Regards,

Bill

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Bill

I am not asking for you or any one to take on the task of running this project, I am willing to do that. What I am asking for is suggestions and volunteers to help. I all ready have a few things in the works including a possible backer that is willing to put-up a bit of cash to help out with the expenses.

As I stated before I would like to hold it in a centrally located area that would make it easier for all of the guys to attend, but that may not be possible. So if we do get it going we will hold it where ever we can get the use of a suitable and safe flying site.

I think that you should look at it from the prospective that it could be a very good for you and your business.

You are in the Video camera and video transmitter business this would give you the opportunity to meet with your customers

and to bring with you products to sell, there would be a lot of the guys that would buy your stuff from you on the spot.

This is why you see so many venders at all of the RC meets.

Not only that you could write the entire trip off as a business expense.

Think it over but please don't rule it out.

And I do appreciate your offer for the advertising space, if we get this going we will take you up on the offer.

Dave Jones

AUAV.net

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Kilrah

There ate these really big things called airplanes and thay fly to the US every day from just about any place in the world.

I am sure that there is probably one that fly from Switzerland to the U.S.:D

Dave Jones

AUAV.net B)

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What's that?? :huh:

Never seen such a thing... :rolleyes:

More seriously as a student I unfortunately can't really afford to make a quick trip to the US, even if I'd love to... :(

And what about travelling with tons of R/C gear and airplanes?? :blink: I wonder what the US customs would say :P

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Dave, I know an undertaking like a UAV meet would be major and hopefully it can be spread around so it wont be too much for one person, ask what you will of me, Ill be there.

You knew this was leading somewhere...

Would a contest of sorts be too far fetched? I love a challenge, I crave a project that demands a little more than I think I have in the bag, so even a simple goal oriented flight would be fun. We could have something as simple as spotting a letter painted in a corraled area like the micro UAV guys do.

I know this might be getting a little ahead of the game yet, maybe itll draw a couple more guys in, a university or two, after all the goal is to learn from each other and have have fun, if it means a major UAV company or a university aerospace engineering class comes and shows us how its done, so be it! :D

Ill be ooing and aweing if they do!

Come on guys, itll be a blast!!!!

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Thanks Mike

I am sure that if the guys would start thinking about it that they could come up with some very good competitive challenges that we all would find fun to do. And if we are not careful we may even learn something in the process.

Come on guys start thinking!!!

Dave Jones

AUAV.net

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I just received my first mailed version of Unmanned Systems Magazine in the mail today, up until now Ive been going online and the PDF route. Anyway I read and re-read the article on the 2004 AUVSI Student Competitions. In particular I reread the Seafarer UAV contest, the others didnt really interest me.

Ok, 11 UNIVERSITY teams entered the contest. They had 40 minutes to excecute a takeoff, autonomous flight over six GPS waypoints and ID some targets, didnt mention anything about autolanding, but the prize money was pretty substantial!

Try $12,500 total. First place $5,000!! (I did this and all I got was a "hey, you cant do that on our field after Jan 1st, 2004".) One entry was a 60 sized off the shelf trainer, a neat looking carbon fiber or composite airframe and an Army target drone, pretty in yellow.

Im a high school graduate. I learned what I know about autonomous flight by listening to guys who do it successfully, reading (a rare art) and the internet.

I and Im sure others with my same background would love to compete in such a competition, not for the money although it would justify it to the misses, but for the thrill of competition and the comradere of others interested in this too.

That is what Dave Jones is offering. A chance to have a friendly meet and competition with guys who share an interest in autonomous flight. Who knows, maybe one of us could find a way to do it cheaper, more efficient or better and that could benefit our future armed forces or border patrol with a solution they can afford.

I really want to meet you guys and have fun.

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I would be interested in attending such an event. However, living in Idaho puts me with too long a drive to Fla. I can handle a central US location given enough advance warning to put in for vacation. However, if it works out easiest to have it elsewhere, thats OK.

KE4UVQ

You mentioned one of the tasks in that contest was to identify some targets. Did it say how that worked? Still photo's? Video feed? How about the distance they had to cover to make those 6 waypoints? Do you have an on-line source as you described where I can take a gander at that article?

Thanks much

Dan

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